Hangxiety Isn’t Just Regret: Why Alcohol Makes Some People Anxious | Millie Gooch | Slurp or Skip
Why does drinking leave some people feeling anxious the next day, even when they have nothing to regret?
In this episode of Slurp or Skip, Richard is joined by Millie Gooch, founder of Sober Girl Society and author of Hangxiety, to explore alcohol, mental health and the changing world of alcohol-free drinks.
Millie shares how her own experience of anxiety after drinking, alongside a master’s in addiction and mental health, inspired her to investigate what alcohol does to our brains, why we drink the way we do, and why some people struggle more than others.
Richard also opens up about his own experience of panic attacks and anxiety following drinking.
Alongside tasting three alcohol-free drinks, we discuss:
• Why “hangxiety” can be more than worrying about what you said or did
• Alcohol’s relationship with anxiety, stress and sleep
• How mental health and neurodivergence can influence our relationship with alcohol
• Friendship, social pressure and choosing not to drink
• Whether alcohol-free drinks need to replicate their alcoholic counterparts
• Price, taste and what pubs and bars could do better
Find Millie on Instagram: @milliegooch and @sobergirlsociety. Her book, Hangxiety, is available in print, on Kindle and on Audible NOW.
Slurp or Skip is brought to you by Stir, the drinks specialist PR agency helping brands speak to the Modern Drinker.
Full transcript below:
Introduction and Millie’s background
[00:00] Rich: Hi everybody, welcome back to another episode of Slurp or Skip and today I am honestly so delighted to introduce Millie Gooch today. Millie is the founder of Sober Girl Society and she is also the author of a number of books, but the soon to be published Hangxiety, which at the time of recording is due out in September. By the time this airs, it may already be out.
[00:27] Millie: May well be, yeah, September the 8th.
[00:30] Rich: September the 8th. So if you haven't got a copy and you're interested in everything in this sort of mindful drinking space, the effects of alcohol on the body and the brain, then do check it out at all good bookstores.
[00:46] Rich: Millie, thanks for joining us today.
[00:48] Millie: Thanks for having me, I'm excited.
[00:50] Rich: So yeah, we've got a lineup of three drinks today, all obviously alcohol-free, hopefully all kind of an indication of different stages of where the category's at. It's obviously come on leaps and bounds, you'll know better than I think anybody in the world maybe around, you know, the types of drinks, the categories, what's going on. But I guess first of all, for those of you... Listening and watching that don't know who Millie is could you explain a little bit about what you do because this is your day-to-day job
[01:26] Millie: yeah I mean I'll give you the cliff notes because we'll be here forever but I got sober in 2018 and that was largely because the effect alcohol was having on my mental health and at the time I was working as a journalist and I started kind of like writing about my own journey with alcohol and I very much did not want to put it on my own personal Instagram and at the same time I was seven months sober and there were like a few things that i was really like struggling with like what to discuss this with like i didn't have anyone my friends didn't care yeah so uh and i wanted to meet like many people so i set up something called sober girl society where i could post the writing that i was doing and also maybe make some sober friends and that is now my full-time job so it's now the largest community for sober and sober curious women we do events and meetups up and down the country everything from like foodless brunches to burlesque like events we do mixers we do an alcohol free wine club which is really fun and so that's the main thing that I do I also then like write I have done like you said a few books now I go into workplaces talk to them about you know sobriety mindful drinking how to have a more sober inclusive work culture I go to unis do podcasts like this basically anything non-alc sobriety you can wheel me out and I'll try and give it a whirl
[03:11] Rich: And could you believe back in 2018 what you're doing now?
[03:15] Rich: And I guess where do you want this journey to go?
[03:19] Millie: Hopefully long, long continue. I never, never would have imagined it in a million years. And I also genuinely say that I was like a bit of an accidental influencer because I actually didn't put my face on Sober Girl Society until I had over 10,000 followers. I was just posting writing, like quotes, drinks, roundups. And then I got asked to do a panel talk.
[03:45] Millie: The first thing I ever did was for Club Soda for their Mindful Drinking Festival. And I had an email and I was like, well, if I do a panel talk, I'm going to have to show my face. And then after that, I was like, OK, maybe I'll start talking. And then I didn't. Have a personal Instagram page until I got the book deal and my agent at the time said and I was doing that classic thing do you remember when you used to post on Instagram with a white board around so it was really cool she was like you need to stop doing that and then you actually need to like start posting to anyone other than your friends and family because my Instagram account was private and so yeah like I never in a million years thought this would be my job
[04:43] Rich: and did things kind of exponentially grow because you actually put your face out there because I know a lot of people I mean, there's all these people saying you should become an influencer, there's no better time to make money online, but a lot of people wanted it without putting their face to it.
[05:04] Rich: Did you find that accelerated everything by being a bit more human and personal?
[05:09] Millie: I don't necessarily think it accelerated the community side of it, because I don't think people are necessarily there for me, they're there to make friends, and I think it probably does help to have a face behind it, but I think in terms of personal brand, as they... Say now i think like in terms of the book staff and like podcast appearance that has accelerated because of that and therefore that has kind of like fed back into the community but i don't necessarily see the direct correlation necessary of me being front and center of the community because i try not to make that page about me as much
[05:53] Rich: yeah nice um and i guess your biggest fears about being i guess pope-facing or on social media Were you right to have those worries or actually has it just been amazing and you wouldn't think twice about doing it again?
[06:09] Millie: I think right to have those worries because I like, weirdly, I'm actually quite private because people are like, I feel like I know your deepest documents, but I actually don't know that much about you because I don't really talk about like, I don't show my friends or family, I don't show my partner, I don't show like a lot of that stuff.
[06:33] Millie: I purely talk about non-alc sobriety, et cetera. So I think I've been quite good to be able to like hold those boundaries, but I have like over the years had. Like agents or whoever be like maybe you should start posting skincare of you and i'm like no that's that's not what i want to do so i'm very i'm quite i think it helped that i started doing this like mid-20s i think had i started when i was like 19 20 i'd be like i'll do whatever you want to do i'll tell you all about my life more heavily influenced yeah so i think yeah definitely right to have some of those worries and you know someone there dms i get can be really really heavy sometimes so that's quite a hard one of having like those sort of medical boundaries um but i'd say like 75 i don't know probably more than that i feel like i need to be more generous that 85 of it is amazing and lovely and i just love meeting everyone and it's so nice
[07:45] Rich: i'm going to ask you loads more questions because i'm obsessed with this whole kind of space yeah we'll start with a little drink um to start the day so our first drink
Drink one: Crossip Blazing Pineapple
[07:58] Rich: Today we have is Crossip which is a zero percent alcohol free spirit and this is their blazing pineapple flavor they've got lots of different variants and what's really interesting with Crossip is they're massive in the entree bar culture and they're not just an alcohol free spirit they're happy for it to be served in cocktails from a low perspective mid strength and obviously full strength because what they believe in is obviously ultimately like really great tasting flavored products um which we do a lot of stuff with like functional drinks health drinks and fundamentally if it tastes crap no one's going to want to drink it for the function anyway um so yeah intrigued to try this i had Crossip many many years ago but haven't had it since so we're going to have it with a bit of ginger beer and lime and see how we go
[08:56] Millie: yeah because i remember Crossip was a bit of a an og actually i think it was one of the first like brands it was a bit different they came out and wasn't just necessarily trying to replicate yes like alcohol free or like replicate alcohol
[09:14] Rich: i'm very on nearly every episode i do i um pour stuff on myself or like champagne bursts on myself.
[09:22] Millie: I'm pretty much the same because I'm not I'm not a mixologist I'm just someone who like loves alcohol free drinks but when I make content with alcohol free drinks I honestly my kitchen is diabolical.
[09:36] Rich: Okay good yeah maybe you know if this keeps and continues to do well we can have a bartender permanently.
[09:43] Millie: Oh yeah that would be really helpful.
[09:46] Rich: That'd be unreal. Bartender on speed dial and we've got a bottle of bandy. For our Australian fans, I don't know why I just shook that.
[09:56] Rich & Millie: Here we go. No, I was going to smell it. I'll try not to do too much. That might already be too much. I should have brought a stirrer, shouldn't I? That's alright.
[10:09] Rich & Millie: Keep it classy. I'm not against just using my finger. I'll stick it in. Sod it. I feel like I'm in the Big Lebowski where he's making a white Russian. Yeah, I'm going to start it.
[10:23] Rich: Okay, there's an interesting question for you. Yeah. I can't think of an example of maybe saying alcohol-free. In pop culture and so for example um madmen glamorize smoking cigarettes and drinking whiskey for me um do you think eventually we might get to that place i know for example daniel craig in his latest or his last james bond ads did heineken zero but not i don't believe that showed up in the film um have you seen that really referencing pop culture or like music or anything and do you think that might be something that could happen in the future
[11:03] Millie: Interestingly, I've actually not seen it, so I could be spreading fake news here, but one of the girls in our WhatsApp group said this week she went to go and see Spider-Man and he's got a placement of his non-alc Biro. So that could be interesting. I think that's on the first.
[11:23] Rich & Millie: Places i've really seen it the only other one is do you watch emily in paris uh i know of them yeah they did a whole episode where one of the brands that they were doing a pr for was alcoholic yeah drinks brand so that was the first time i've ever really seen it pop up and did they do that in a positive sense or did they try like undermine it in the classic way a lot of people do alcohol they really kind of undermined it and well there was i remember um Camille she did a piece about it especially being French as well and I think they had characters being quite rude about it as well and the way that they kind of it was for like pregnant women I think they didn't do it in the way that I would have liked them to do it yeah great and I'm going to ask you a question on that later because I imagine that's something you've experienced and probably still to this day experience of like oh why are you drinking that why can't you blah blah blah on the nose let me know what you think it smells like um i'm gonna go get some shot glasses in a second we can smell it neat but i mean it's like you definitely get the pineapple straight away i think it feels like real pineapple as well yeah not that synthetic you'd get this interestingly as well is exactly the type of thing that i would drink like this is the thing that these days i gravitate towards for sure so like yeah this is 100 a bit of nice okay great Yeah, lovely pineapple on the nose.
[13:17] Rich: There's a little bit of spice with it. I know the ginger beer has obviously got a natural spice. So they called it Blazing Pineapple, so they've got a little bit of that heat in the background.
[13:31] Millie: What I really love with a lot of alcohol-free spirits is... They're starting to get really really grown up um and even like the rtd mixed cans and canned cocktails that are alcohol free also feel quite grown up so i'm intrigued to try the mimosa because where you see some of the sort of soft drinks um i think we tried um beaver farms did a um what's the spritz everyone's having in the minute hugo yeah but obviously without the substitute alcohol the substitute spirit it did feel like it was lacking anything it just tasted like an elderflower sort of um juice but no this definitely has i mean it says it's got scotch bonnet on it whichever i can taste but i think having the heat is really good for people who don't drink because a lot of them especially like in early kind of like sobriety or not drinking or mindful drinking whatever still want to replicate that heat that you get and i think a lot of people miss that when they have it and it like falls a little bit flat for them whereas i think this is exactly the type of thing that they should go for.
[14:50] Rich & Millie: But I think it's quite hard to get people who have no idea about this category into a product like this. I think that's one of the biggest things that we find is like that. How do you get people to understand drinks that don't necessarily aim to emulate alcohol? Yeah, that's the biggest challenge. We and probably the brands like that. Yeah.
[15:15] Rich: So that was going to be one of my questions actually is because I even asked before you came on. In terms of what do you drink? Because for some people, especially if it's like a sobriety journey, can alcohol-free beers, alcohol-free spirits be triggering alcohol-free wine? So for me, I would be remiss of thinking that it doesn't have alcohol on it because, yeah, like you say, the spice can give you a bit of that mouthfeel and tingling on the lips or whatever. Ice and glass always makes a drink like if you have a diet coke it's elevated 10x yeah you know everything to it everyone always thinks that's like marketing rubbish but it definitely helps the serve kind of come to life so do you think there is I guess a job for alcohol free to kind of step out or is it already doing it stepping away from its alcoholic Counterparts and it's just becoming its own thing.
[16:18] Millie: I think it is becoming its own thing definitely I think on the triggering thing it is really difficult because some people do find alcohol free drinks triggering but again I think it's also a bit of that education piece of all like non-alc drinks are blanketed as kind of a lot of the time, replications of alcoholic ones.
[16:41] Millie: So I think some people might say, oh, I don't drink non-alcoholic drinks because I find them triggering, but don't understand that a drink like that exists that isn't trying to be anything alcoholic. And even like, I was a big vodka drinker and I've got no interest in a non-alcoholic vodka. I just don't. I don't want to replicate it. It's not I find it triggering. If you've had one now, I could drink it.
[17:10] Millie: I just don't want to. I don't enjoy it. So I think they are doing a... A great job of moving away but i do also still think there is a place for drinks that emulate that because a lot of people when they do come to this category like me and you will know there is hundreds of alcohol-free wines when or like sparkling wines when people first come to this category the only one they ever know is like no seco the amount of people that we get in our chat sharing i've tried no seco it's really good and i'm like i'm like i think no seco for you know being cheap and everything and as an entry is great but i think there's some incredible products out there that people have just no idea exists and i think i do think there is a place for them because i think when people stop drinking they just want that life like when i stopped drinking i wanted things that kind of gave me the same like i wanted an alcohol-free gin so i felt like i was part of the group when my friends had gin i didn't want to feel like i had this like weird product all on my own but the longer i've been sober I really don't gravitate towards those products as much anymore.
[18:39] Millie: That wouldn't be my first choice. I would go for something more like this.
[18:45] Rich: And do you think... So when you say you're just not interested in alcohol-free vodka, but you did used to drink vodka, is that purely because it was like, you know, like... Energy juice that would just get you to where you wanted to go on a night out yeah and you didn't actually enjoy vodka back then either
[19:08] Millie: yeah i used to drink vodka diet coke because it was like zero calories and would well not zero calories but the mixer was basically and it would get me drunk the quickest yeah without bloating me but there were like i used to really like an espresso martini so now i love having like an alcohol free espresso martini but vodka for me was purely function so i didn't drink it because i enjoyed it
[19:37] Rich: and where do you sit on the line with like Alcohol-free is obviously 0.5% and under. A lot of people would say that's low alcohol because they see that it's still got a 0.5 percentage.
[19:51] Rich: And there are other people in your community that won't even touch 0.5% because there is just even that. Trace them out even though you can get that in like a bit of shandy in a fish and chip shop or whatever
[20:08] Millie: yeah 100 people and if i poster like a 0.5 product people are like i thought you were sober they say there is such still i think a lack of education about that and i think brands can sometimes be a bit guilty of and i've said this on a few panels that i've been on i've just thinking that at this point everyone knows that and they just don't like most people have no idea about the 0.5 saga what it means i know they're trying to get the laws changed and everything so that it's not like low alcohol you can say alcohol free but i think like every brand on their website needs to you know have a point about what is 0.5 i think every brand still needs to be drawing home that education piece if they're that type of brand i don't think that they can just assume that everyone knows that i think they're missing out on a lot of people who might drink their product but don't because it says 0.5 yeah so i think that is a
[21:21] Rich: i think sometimes when we get in these echo chambers or like so far down the line with this category we just we don't realize that some people have no idea yeah we're so guilty of this because we try so many things as soon as they release that some things we wanted to have uh today they they're not even in shops yet but we've seen about them in the news or in the trade news um you forget you're in your own marketing bubble drinks bubble like the we always talk about it with like the gin boom so when i started in pr 15 years ago it was the beginning of the gym boom we've definitely had that but like still up and down the country you've still got your gin menus and stuff in like all your you know rural pubs and stuff um i think the guinness bubbles burst like we've reached peak guinness when everyone's done a collab with guinness um but that won't be the case up and down the country like they're still doing crazy volumes right so um yeah i think alcohol free obviously is it's growing it's really exciting how well it's doing, but it's still got a lot of space to go.
[22:44] Rich: Yeah, 100%. So just wanted to try it neat, sniff it neat, just see if there's any more that we get from it. Ginger beer obviously can be quite heavy. So definitely loads of like fresh pineapple. Love to know how they do that so it doesn't come across all synthetic. I'm interested to see how much spice comes out now it's not been diluted.
[23:09] Rich & Millie: I think I can even like smell the spice, like it tingles my nose slightly. Oh. Don't know how you are with spice, but that's... Tell you what, not that it's ever taken off. If you were to try and do a non-alcoholic shot, I feel like that was a good one to shot. Well, yes.
[23:31] Rich: You're trying to replicate the same sort of black. So it's got a really, and this is a horrible way to describe it, oily viscosity. But it actually really lines the tongue. It's lovely and spice. I think the balance is absolutely perfect.
[23:47] Millie: I do quite like them where they're a little bit thicker, like the viscosity is like that.
[23:54] Millie: I find some of them are too thin and then when you put them with a mixer, they're just... They get lost.
[24:02] Rich: Yeah. God, that's really good. I like that a lot. That's really, really good.
[24:08] Rich: Okay. Slurp for you or a skip?
[24:10] Millie: That is a slurp for me, for sure. Because it says pineapple fizz. I don't know if I get the fizz unless you put it with ginger beer. If I was buying that and maybe I was expecting it to be fizzy, I might be a bit confused.
[24:29] Millie: But apart from that, that's a big slurp for me. I'm just trying to find anything that's like not as incredible.
[24:37] Rich: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. No brainer slurp. I think it might be my favourite alcohol-free spirit I've had.
[24:44] Rich: Bold clay. I think. I just haven't had enough of them, mate. But I thought it was absolutely delicious. I thoroughly recommend anyone drinks that.
Sobriety, social occasions and changing drinking culture
[24:53] Rich: I was going to ask this actually in your community do people talk about shots um because sometimes people want to so i assume a lot of your audience are well zebra striping trying to just cut back so they don't have the negative effects but still have the alcohol so i broadly speaking just avoid shots and mixing all together now and just stay on the one drink for the whole evening um is alcohol free shots a thing because actually this is a great way if we're thinking for like our on trade audience to drive extra revenue that you can still get everybody in the group doing a shot, but obviously without the negative effects on the alcohol, because you're still getting, I guess, some sort of like chemical reaction in your body. Like, I'm actually feeling a little bit hot. I need to turn the AT on. Mouth tingle, all of that sort of stuff. It makes you go. And you get that joint kind of experience, which I think is half the battle with alcohol free is like feeling part of the party.
[26:06] Millie: I don't actually necessarily know if it's a thing, but interestingly, I went on a Hindu recently in Spain and we went to a drag bar and it was so much fun and they were giving everyone shots like every. Like hour there was basically a round of shots it was in the package that we'd paid for and they didn't do an alcohol free package and i normally expect like nothing that exciting and every time she gave me a shot that she'd made me and sometimes it was just like diet coat with glitter in it but i just like loved feeling part of it because there's nothing worse than me than all the girls being like cheers to the bride and i'm just sat there like that's really awkward like I'm at a point in my surprise where it would not bother me to do like a shot of that. Some people might feel uncomfortable with doing a shot, but I've been sober for so long now that, yeah, I actually, I think there could be something in it when it's part of maybe a package that already exists. I don't know if I would go out of my way necessarily to go and do an alcoholic shot.
[27:28] Rich: Yeah, that's a really nice segue, actually, because I was going to say there's those cultural moments. Especially in british culture that are so strongly associated with alcohol now to be honest there's billions of them because nearly everything is connected um things like hen do's stag do's um i found very difficult especially kind of you have all everyone does the round everyone has the same during how do you kind of go about that with your kind of friendship groups now was it actually that difficult for your friends to kind of get it um and do they just there's no more peer pressure now was there quite a bit in the beginning of your kind of sobriety journey
[28:15] Millie: yeah i think i lucked out i always say because when i told my i had said so many times i'm never drinking again like it became comical yeah so i said it like boy who cried wolf yeah exactly and they were like sure okay whatever and then i did like a few nights out and i i'm because i'm quite stubborn i was like i'm gonna stay till the end i'm gonna prove that i can still be quite fun So I did that and then a few months went by and I was like, I'm still not drinking.
[28:54] Millie: And they were like, okay, cool, like she'll be over this soon. And then it got to about six months and me and my friend were going on a trip to Canada and she was like, oh, you're going to drink while we're away, aren't you? And I was like, no. And you just kind of like saw it on her face and like, oh my God, this is, this is a thing now. But I think because it had gone so far and because I had been on the nights out, I'd like done all the stuff. I think they were like, oh, this is the new normal now.
[29:36] Millie: It gave them time to get used to it. Some people have really hard times with their friends. I see it because we have a WhatsApp group. The problems and the dilemmas that the girls put in there of their friends excluding them, not wanting to be friends with them. All of those things are really hard. But yeah, I'm really lucky because I also don't get any peer pressure.
[30:03] Millie: I still back then got, oh, come on, don't be boring. Go on, have one. But it wasn't. Horrible and it wasn't we won't be your friend if you don't drink which some people get but now it's just it's not even a thing it's like one of my friends is vegetarian so it's the same basically on par these days of like well if we go here then shauna can eat this dish and millie can have xyz like it's the same sort of thing yeah so yeah
[30:38] Rich: and i feel like i hear a bit more we've obviously got a lot younger people in the office some of my friends just they just don't want to drink and that's kind of fine and it's accepted and i think there is definitely obviously older parts of society where it's just been so engraved for so long it's much more difficult to do that have any of your friends uh kind of followed you on this journey even if it's just partially like um yeah have you kind of noticed that you've actually almost convinced some of the people around you um or not necessarily convinced right because yeah yeah some people can have a good relationship with alcohol um but for like for a lot of people it can obviously have a lot of negative effects right
[31:32] Millie: yeah i think i'm not i haven't like it's really hard because when i stopped drinking i was 26 and now i'm 35 and all my friends are kind of of the same age so it's all come around the time of like them having kids naturally everyone has slowed down with their drinking yeah but i would say they are so much more like and i think it's hard because as well like i was saying to you earlier i was the only one that seemed to really struggle with my relationship all my friends had like a fairly normal one but like I think they have come on the journey of being accepting of other people.
[32:17] Millie: So like my friends will say, oh, there's a girl at work that doesn't drink. And I was telling her about you and what you do. So it's like one less person in the world that has like a view of, come on, don't be boring, which I think is really nice. Even if I haven't. They haven't come around to not drinking. They have come around to not drinking being an acceptable thing.
[32:46] Millie: And that's the thing I care about more. I don't care whether they drink or not. I care that they're accepting of not drinking. That's the other thing, yeah.
[32:57] Rich: Yeah, nice. And out of interest, is there a reason why you did Sober Girls Society, specifically women?
[33:04] Rich: And have you ever considered, or do you think there is a good enough male equivalent of what you do?
[33:12] Millie: No, I can't even really remember exactly why sober girls started. I think I just thought it was easier just to get girls together. But as time has gone on, I think I've been made aware that it's the right decision from like some girls have had really negative experiences when they've been drunk in terms of sexual assault and things like that. And so for them to have like a really safe space that they feel like they can go to, I think is really important. So it wasn't necessarily why I started it, but I think.
[33:50] Millie: It became apparent that that was the best thing. I think there are some great like alcohol-free men talking about this subject but there's not necessarily like a like on like community but interestingly over the years I must have had 40 plus DMs of people saying I really want to start Sober Girl Society would you help me and I'm like absolutely and they have just never started it. I think it's hard for men to start maybe an alcohol-free community I don't I don't know what it is it's just never quite. Taken off with anything
[34:28] Rich: yeah it's interesting when I see a lot around men's mental health spaces how you see a lot of people like who give up alcohol and then they take take that I guess time and energy and put it into like hiking or sports or obsessive with fitness or whatever it might be but yeah interesting one I think I think there's a definitely an opportunity and a need for that sort of space yeah So this, yeah, the Crossip Blazing Pineapple, absolutely fabulous, really loved it. Available for around 25 to 21 on promotion per bottle.
[35:05] Rich: Given you're getting a large bottle of that, you're serving it with a single measure, you're going to get quite a few drinks out of that. So yeah, definitely recommend if you've never tried it before. And obviously, yeah, you'll be able to go find it in a lot of bars around the UK as well. So next up for our second drink is we have a
Drink two: Wind Up sparkling tea
[35:31] Rich: Product called Wind Up. Sometimes people at work, so I'm a bit of a wind-up. It's a wine alternative. It's a sparkling tea. They call it sparkling white. But what's interesting here is it's got electrolytes and vitamin C, 0.1% ABV.
[35:48] Rich: But it's, yeah, it's got 100 milligrams of potassium, 70 milligrams of magnesium, and 20 milligrams of vitamin C, which is approximately around 20, 25% of your recommended guidance. Maybe I should have done it in a flute, actually. Let's see. What are you getting on the nose there, Millie?
[36:07] Millie: Oh, quite happily. I'm instantly getting tea.
[36:10] Rich & Millie: Yeah. So if you didn't know you were having tea, you're going to know. Yeah. The tea does give it a slight staleness, but not in a necessarily negative way. Yeah, I was going to say it's a bit earthy. Which makes me think, if I think of tea, I then think of tannin.
[36:31] Rich & Millie: Yeah. And so then I'm thinking it might be quite bitter. Decent amount of fizz. I butchered it by putting it in this glass. Decent amount of fizz and it is very sweet. Decent like mouthfeel and texture for an alcohol-free wine.
[36:47] Rich & Millie: Well, an alcohol-free wine alternative. See, really, I'm not getting that much fizz in mine, but I don't know if it's... Maybe this would be better in a flute, although you're probably likely to drink it. Out of the can, but I've probably butchered it putting it in there, so let's see how that looks. Well, maybe you're right. Naturally, whenever I have anything alcohol-free that's meant to me like a wine, I just instantly think of Schler.
[37:17] Rich: Yeah. Which I can't believe is still going, by the way. I don't know who buys Schler. I think it's people that first come to this category and that's the first thing that they think exists. What do you think?
[37:33] Millie: It's sweeter than I thought it was going to be, which I think is a good thing because...
[37:39] Millie: I think the sparkling teas are a hard sell for a lot of people. I really like them, but again, I think it's another one that when you first come to this category, you're like, oh, this is a flavor I haven't really tried before. I think it's a hard one for people to initially get their head around. So I think this is a good sparkling tea because it's still a little bit sweet. So I think it's a good probably entry one into sparkling tea.
[38:13] Rich: Yeah, I guess sparkling tea is really big in Asia, especially in like restaurants, that kind of thing.
[38:20] Rich: Although we consume a lot of tea in the UK predominantly, it's just breakfast tea in a mug, maybe with a couple of sugars. So we're not really used to drinking, even things like sweet teas, what do you call them? Iced teas. We don't really drink an awful lot of that in the UK. I think my worry is, I feel like most entry white wines are broadly speaking, people are wanting like a dry white wine. You do obviously get some of the sweet ones at the lower end of the market.
[38:57] Rich: The electrolytes and all those added benefits, I mean, I have no idea that they're in there unless they've set it on the packaging. So I think that's, you know, it tastes obviously over function first.
[39:10] Millie: I'd be interested to see how I feel afterwards because the funny thing I find with a lot of alcohol-free wine is I feel hungover the next day even if like it's not alcohol. Yeah. So I wonder if the electrolytes might actually balance some of that out and keep you hydrated because I think that's you wake up the next day after you've drunk quite a lot of alcohol-free drinks and you expect to be flowing and hydrated for actually a lot of the time. It's like not.
[39:45] Rich: That's really interesting. So you did a LinkedIn post a few months back and you're like what would you want? In like uh like an influencer package or whatever to go along with the books whatever um and so one of my big things is uh when i struggled um with anxiety after drinking i was just dosing myself with electrolytes magnesium and i had no idea if it was actually doing anything but it was somewhat of a placebo effect but the other thing was yeah it's the sheer amount of sugar and whatever else you're drinking people always laugh at me but if i have like a bag of haribo or chocolate like a big bar of chocolate and then the next day the hangover is unbelievably bad um and i think when you're drinking you just attribute all of that to alcohol but actually when there's no alcohol in it you realize that some things don't make you feel great so actually i'd i'll report back in the morning
[40:51] Millie: yeah yeah or even a few hours later but yeah i think the electrolytes might be great for that and I think that's that is what makes sparkling tea I've never really had it with sparkling tea to be fair it's usually just like straight up an alternative so yeah I'd be interested it's it's weird I'm I'm not like oh my god this is amazing but I want to keep drinking it so I'm kind of like I think it's maybe more traditionally not something I would go for but I think I would recommend it to someone who was looking for an entry point okay because Yeah, like I said, with some alcohol-free drinks, they can feel really grown up and this does feel grown up.
[41:41] Millie: I think it's just like you say, it's a taste profile I'm not really used to. Yeah.
[41:48] Rich: And the can format, again, we've worked with alcohol, sorry, we work with wine in a can generally. That's quite, still got a job to do in terms of snobbery around that. Maybe in a different format. I might actually enjoy this more in an elevated like glass bottle.
[42:07] Rich: I'm not sure I'll double check if they actually do that. So what are your thoughts? Is it a slap or skip? Personally or objectively?
[42:16] Millie: It's personally probably not a massive slurp for me, but if it was like something I was given at a party, I'd be quite happy. I think it's not necessarily something I would go out and purchase myself, but that's just me.
[42:33] Millie: But I think like... You know if we had them at an event i'm sure you'd get a lot of people who would go oh yeah that's actually really nice yeah yeah is there a middle ground between like you can go a little slurp a little slurp yeah that's what i go for a little slurp
[42:55] Rich: okay um yeah i think i think i'm the same as you i wasn't from the packaging again sometimes things can be a bit too cool for school it's quite understated um i had really no idea where it was going but literally as a beverage it's quite nice to drink It's alcohol-free. It's got some added benefits to it. There's not an awful lot for me not to like about that as a premise. So yeah, I'm going to say it's a slurp for me as well. So these retail for around $3.50 a can, available in multi-packs, which feels about right for the rest of the category.
[43:37] Rich: It's a really interesting one. I think sparkling tea is something we're going to see more and more of, especially within the on-trade and restaurant environments. Um so yeah if you're interested if you like what we said um let us know and definitely um yeah grab a couple of cans and let us know
Hangxiety and alcohol’s impact on mental health
[43:58] Rich: What you think um so millie your new book yes sorry this is gonna be a good segue sorry millie your new book yeah um anxiety uh out very very soon uh if not now um september 8th whenever this comes out um can you explain a little bit more around how you came about with this idea was it your idea did someone go you should write about this And can you give us a little bit of like a synopsis blurb on what you cover within the book?
[44:33] Millie: Yeah, cool. So it was my idea actually because I wanted to write a really mental health focused book. So a couple of years ago I decided that I wanted to go back to uni and do a master's degree. So I got a master's in addiction and mental health. And I just thought there was so much missing for the alcohol conversation in terms of mental health.
[45:00] Millie: And there's some incredible books out there that I read and a lot of them focus on, you know, getting sober and how to get sober. What you do when you are sober and there wasn't anything that kind of ever explained maybe why you drank in the way you did and you know why some people might struggle more than others and anxiety for me was probably the biggest reason that I stopped drinking in that like I would wake up the next day and just spiral into oblivion like panic attacks suicidal thoughts like it was it was just quite dark for me in the next day and it just with that kind of like cycle that I think a lot of people find themselves in of drinking to feel better and then finding they actually feel worse. And so I wanted to really do basically a book that looked at all facets of alcohol and mental health and how alcohol affects our brains. It covers everything from like so the three kind of first emotional roller coasters that i talk about are like stress sleep and anxiety um then i also looked at like depression and also things like how ocd or bpd or ptsd might contribute to your alcohol use or how much alcohol affects you and then i also looked at neurodivergence which i think is going to be a big topic over the next few years of in kind of like addiction mental health circles of how you know neurodivergence can change your relationship with substance or other addictions so i included that as well and then i did some like kind of socio -political stuff as well and talked a bit you know about the alcohol industry and the environment and actually how your drinking might have been influenced from things that happened in your childhood or the people you spend your time with or the stories and messages that you've absorbed about alcohol growing up so it looks at pretty much everything um across the board yeah and i spoke to people who are 100 times smarter than me i sat on a lot of zoom calls with psychiatrists and neuropsychopharmacologists and you know anyone and everyone who would talk to me that had some sort of degree that was related um and yeah and then wrote the book
[47:33] Rich: Well, I honestly can't wait to read it.
[47:36] Rich: I've already pre-ordered it. I was kind of saying off air. So, yeah, about 18 months ago, I suffered with a couple of panic attacks, one specifically after drinking. And it basically just overnight gave me anxiety for about a period of 18 months. It took me to get over it. It affected my day job, everything in life, driving, you name it.
[48:01] Rich: And I've always had... Good relationship with alcohol, but I think those people that know me is if I'm drinking, I'm really drinking, and then otherwise I just don't touch the stuff. And so I never felt like I had an issue with it, but what I've started to notice as I got into my 30s is those days after, just an unbelievable feeling, which I now know to be anxiety. And I remember speaking to a therapist about this and they were like, I don't know what that is, it's not a real thing. Can you explain what hangxiety is? Because a lot of people were like, oh, are you...
[48:44] Rich: Worried about what you might have said or the way you behave but i'm fully cumbersome about how i was all of that evening um so how would you describe what hangxiety is and obviously it can affect people differently
[48:59] Millie: yeah so really at its core hangxiety is what we call a neural rebound which the simplest way to explain that is what goes up must come down what goes down must come up so when you're drinking like uh say neurotransmitters like GABA are enhanced glutamate is suppressed the next day your your brain loves balance so that's one thing about your brain and so the next day your brain goes oh like you know we had a lot of GABA last night and you know there wasn't much glutamate we need to I'm really simplifying this but in the easiest way this is how I had to do it when the neuroscientists were telling me so like the next day your brain tries to course correct so it will you know give you a spike of glutamate and it will suppress GABA and it will make you feel way more anxious so what it giveth it take it away the next day so yeah when you're drinking you feel relaxed and chilled because of this kind of like uh you know you have a release and then the next day your brain course corrects so that at its simplest is it's a neural rebound especially but also you can look at the way that alcohol affects kind of sleep and your stress systems as well and all of that can kind of encompass anxiety and that feeling that you get the next day even if you maybe had two or three like you said you remember your compass mentis but it can still make you feel that way and then what I looked at was like especially if maybe people who are neurodivergent or already have higher baseline levels of anxiety that feeling the next day can actually be a lot worse for people who have OCD their brains might really run away with them more than normal so yeah all of those things together make anxiety but then there is also the other side of uh like blackouts people who don't remember what they did or said and that's kind of added to that as well
[51:18] Rich: okay so i've got about a million questions i'm gonna ask you on that but if we don't open this drink uh we're gonna be here till the time the book opens book opens book launches you know what i mean um right so this our
Drink three: Galvanina Mimosa 0%
[51:36] Rich: Third final drink is a bit fluoro um as i've just learned this is uh i'm down with the kids uh um galvanina yeah sorry Well, I look more haggard than you do, so maybe I should stop drinking alcohol. Galvanina Mimosa, 0%. So obviously mimicking the classic Mimosa. So we've gone with our flute style glasses. I've never heard of this brand. Okay.
[52:01] Rich & Millie: Well, hopefully you can give your first... Unadulterated review of it I'm excited but that is the lovely thing as well because like when I first started drinking I didn't know like well there weren't hardly any non-alcoholic brands and as they launched I feel like I knew them all and now I'm at a place where I've come here and I'm like oh I've never heard of that I've never like I'd see new brands all the time, so it's really cool. Well, and hopefully that's an indication that the space is outgrowing, well, basically how much you can focus on what the news is, right? And hopefully there'll be some sort of consolidation of that. We're already seeing some of the big alcohol companies investing in this space. And doing acquisitions i think i even saw not necessarily alcohol free but um australia dam has just acquired stakes in dalston soda company interesting um so again as traditional alcohol is struggling at the minute then naturally feels like there's a huge opportunity for a lot of these smaller brands um how does it smell very mimosary i might be getting more fanta though than i am a bit orangina yeah a little bit orangina Which is nice because it's about 30 degrees outside.
[53:24] Millie: Feels like you're on holiday. It's a nice orange drink. This is sometimes what I find hard with this category. Again, getting out of the mindset of trying to replicate things. On its own, it's a nice drink. But if you liken it to a mimosa, it's not a mimosa.
[53:43] Millie: The consistency is not a mimosa. It's, yeah. Yeah. Even if they went with more like a fresh orange juice, maybe even with the bits in it, to make it feel like you were kind of emulating it, the sparkle and the bubbles have gone. I mean, orange juice usually kills it anyway. Taste-wise, it's delicious, but it does just taste like Orangina for me.
[54:09] Rich & Millie: That's the thing, I think it's really hard because sometimes it feels like... Not that you set themselves up to fail but by having the like for like that's it sometimes i think it would be better to have a drink that exists on its own that doesn't yeah because your only thing then is oh well it doesn't taste like that it's like you don't want people's first reaction to be disappointment that it doesn't taste like the thing it's saying that it's trying to be 100 and i think yeah there's very few that do it incredibly well i think for me guinness zero did an unbelievable job yeah where you can barely taste the difference heineken zero obviously is uh probably one of the ones that really kick -started the alcohol-free beer category and does a good job it's a shame really beautiful italian product looks nice And it's really drinkable. And it's really drinkable, but it isn't alcohol free and I think you'd be disappointed because it hasn't got that kind of grown-up feel, hasn't got like a mouth feel, hasn't got that depth and structure or the viscosity that we were talking about.
[55:25] Rich & Millie: Yeah, it's quite thin I would say and not carbonated enough. Okay, well, this might be a quick one, sadly. How do you rate this one? I mean, it's a slurp in terms of drinkability, but a skip in terms of if I was trying to get an alcohol -free mimosa and I was given that, I think I'd be a little bit... You might feel short-changed, right? I think I'd feel a bit short-changed, yeah, so I would skip it.
[55:57] Rich: If it's trying to be a mimosa, if it was, like, amazing sparkling orange drink, yes. Okay. So i think i agree with you milly um it's 180 a bottle um available in places like ocado so considerably less than say for example like a wind up and some of the other kind of ready-to -drink alcohol-free products and that kind of is represented in the product itself tasting like a soft drink a good soft drink yeah nice no not dissimilar to like the san pellegrino yeah or whatever it is But yeah, sadly, a skip for me, on the basis, it just doesn't feel like an alcohol-free drink. Yeah, sadly, sorry. Let us know if you disagree or if you want to have a row about it.
Price, hospitality and the future of alcohol-free
[56:46] Rich: Simili, when we talk about alcohol-free drinks, one of the big things, and I guess the big challenges that always comes up, is price. Now we've obviously talked through the lineup here today different levels of the price bracket some we think offer more value than others a lot of consumers think they're too expensive why do you think they are that expensive and do you think anything can be really done around that or actually do you believe with the really good ones they should be priced this way because they're their own quality product in their own right
[57:25] Millie: yeah 100 i think they should be priced the way they are priced really because you know with a i i think it's really hard because some i think are overpriced but i think the ones that are doing it right like the Crossip one i would happily pay that because i think for a lot of alcohol-free drinks there's all the same costs and we have this idea that you know alcohol is expensive but often alcohol is like the cheaper part of the drink things that cost money your bottling your labeling your botanicals your distillation process all of those things and often with alcohol free there's an extra step as well because they're distilling it with the alcohol and then they're removing it so for a lot of them they are expensive and quite rightly so i think what i begrudge paying is like that much money when it's like I get given a cocktail in a bar that's just juice that's like grenadine and orange juice that's what I think I struggle with but I think again it is around that education piece of knowing why alcohol-free drinks are so expensive when I explain it to people and I say that the bottling that oh yeah this has to be removed like beer sometimes brewed with alcohol and then taken away people are like oh yeah I get it I understand the price so I think again there is a massive like education piece that needs to be done that I don't think the industry are necessarily doing themselves and it falls to like people like me who get dm saying yeah but they're so expensive so to explain that so i think there's a lot that can be done with that specifically around the price but i think i think it's harder in terms of like in the supermarket because i think when you're out most people who don't drink more ration well i'm only going to have like two or three so i'm happy to play like more money for a like cocktail like a non-alcoholic cocktail because I'm not going to have 12 which I normally have I think it's harder in supermarkets as I think smaller bottles are like a big thing that a lot of brands can do because the other thing is non-alcoholic drinks go off quicker than alcohol drinks so you've got to think about right am I going to be able to get through that whole thing and however long that's there So I think that's an important factor as well.
[60:13] Millie: So I do think smaller bottles are actually a great entry point for a lot of brands and I don't see too many brands doing smaller bottles. I think they would really benefit from that.
[60:26] Rich: Okay, yeah, that's a really good shout. It's something I actually think should be done in wine as well, just given the way people are consuming. There's Poco Vino that does that. But I think like Bativo, Mother Root, do they do smaller?
[60:43] Millie: I don't know. I don't know if they did well but even as a can which I think is fantastic so I think being able to have it in a can is great as well so yeah if you have a serve something like this maybe you could do it in a can already with ginger beer I think that's a really good entry point and even also for people tasting your product for the first time people don't necessarily want to gamble on something that they've got no idea what it tastes like they're like I don't want to pay for 25 quid for something that could taste like leather yeah so that I think having a can or a smaller bottle where they can try it is a good entry point for them going and buying a full-size bottle
[61:38] Rich: Yeah, super smart. I always have that argument with craft beer. People have stepped away from craft beer because if you're going to pay £7 plus nowadays on a pint, you want to know what it's going to taste like. It's not too hoppy or fruity or whatever. And that kind of segues nicely into if you're out in a bar, you obviously mentioned you're on a hen do.
[62:04] Rich: The UK is obviously reasonably... Advance with this alcohol free i'm sure there's some other countries that are probably doing it even more so what do you think hospitality is getting wrong about alcohol free or what do you think they could be doing more of um to really appeal to those consumers of which it's seems like there's a growing number of them who are either on a sober journey or just trying to reduce their alcohol intake
[62:35] Millie: yeah i think my favorite thing that i've seen a lot of people in hospitality do lately is having a menu with the cocktail and you can have it either with or without alcohol i think it's such an interesting cool way to do it because there are so many like life like things now that you can do so i think and especially if you're like crossing by saying oh you could have this in an alcoholic drink or you could have it in a non-alcoholic drink i think if you had that as like you know the base or whatever and you build a cocktail around it and then you can add alcohol if you want or just have it without it because it should stand up on its own i think that's a really thing to do i think generally i think with hospitality i think that a lot of them don't get necessarily into the mindset they're not just catering for like the sober customer but the sober customers friends might come along if the sober customer is catered to because my friends now will go oh where do you want to go is there enough good options for you so they're not just getting my business they're getting everyone else i think they think by just catering to the sober customer Curating is just that one person, but they're not there.
[64:06] Millie: They're for all their friends as well. So I think that's an interesting thing to think about as well.
[64:14] Rich: Yeah, so not thinking alcohol-free consumers are like a drain on their... You always see this with like, places don't want to be like family restaurants or family whatever. But actually, I think there's a lot of data that suggests families actually end up spending more. So yeah, that makes an awful lot of sense.
[64:35] Rich: So with alcohol-free... A lot of them are emulating alcoholic drinks. Some of the real success stories of the category like Mother Root, Bativo are just becoming their own drinks in themselves. Do you think that is where the category is going to go? And is there anything interesting or exciting that you've seen that you think? Might be about to blow up in that regard so like things that people haven't yet discovered but it's not a beer it's not a spirit it's just its own thing
[65:09] Millie: yeah i think i think that probably is the way the category is going and i think because you know the industry i guess is also industry-led i think people are seeing the success of of those brands and are sort of like really following suit so i think that's definitely probably where the category is is going and i think Especially seeing as a lot of the alcohol industry are just going to replicate their brands in non-alcoholics.
[65:39] Millie: So I think for more independent brands, I think that is probably a good trajectory. In terms of things I've seen, I feel like I haven't seen any ridiculous innovation lately that I'm like... Otherwise, I would probably remember it because I do think there is this case of like something successful and everyone goes and we're going to try. I've seen 4,000 different alternatives to Trip recently or Poppy. To me, the worry is it's starting to feel quite samey. But I mean, the Crossip one is that feels really fresh and different to me.
[66:17] Millie: So if anything, I'd say that's, yeah. I've seen innovation in... Uh alcohol which i think will be really interesting there was a brand i saw that was cocktail with a k and they've got these cool yeah with the packaging i think in non-alc i think that would be really cool because i think you're just adding that element of like feeling sophisticated like you haven't got a child's drink and i think that's exactly what you want when you're doing alcohol free so i think that would be really cool if someone could do that in alcohol
[66:55] Rich: i love that actually because i remember bativo talking about how do we explain to people how best to drink it because if you just tried it as it is it might give you a really bad initial first experience and actually serving them in the way that is intended including the glassware so it elevates it i think it's a really nice touch
[67:20] Millie: oh i tell you i have seen one actually that i quite like it's called bunter it's a beer brand and it's south asian led and it's um a girl behind it and i don't really see that many like sort of like beer Beers targeted at women and I drink non-alcoholic beers.
[67:41] Millie: I think that is a really really cool angle that she's got that's a little bit different that I've not really seen that much of.
[67:50] Rich: Cool, I've not heard of it.
Closing thoughts and Hangxiety
[67:53] Rich: I'll have to check it out.
[67:55] Millie: Yeah, it's really cool.
[67:57] Rich: So Millie, thanks so much for your time today reviewing these drinks. I'm usually... The yes men and i say i love absolutely all of these um so we've had a nice little mixed bag of results for all of them um as i mentioned earlier i can't wait obviously for the book to come out um and just kind of i guess understand how our brains work and mine in particular with when we drink um for i guess the next few months as the book comes out you're just gonna be doing a lot of promotion with it what's your hopes that the book will achieve either on an individual level and on a group level. Where do you hope that it will go?
[68:45] Millie: I just hope that it will give people a bit more understanding about their own brain. Like, I say in the book, I'm not trying to get everyone to, like, join my teetotal cult. It's never been about that.
[69:00] Rich: Do people call it a teetotal cult?
[69:03] Millie: Oh, yeah, I get all sorts of comments like that. And I think, like, and a prohibitionist, that's the other one I get.
[69:12] Millie: I'm like, I actually couldn't care less. But I just want people to have, I think because there's so much shame tied up in, like, you know, why can't I drink like a normal person? Or why do I feel like this? Or there's not an understanding. And we drink this product so freely without having any kind of idea what it's actually doing to us a lot of the time and we don't really do that with anything else and so I think just giving people the understanding to be able to make more informed choices of like you know I'm having a really bad week this week maybe this week isn't the week to drink alcohol even though it feels like the week that I want to maybe I should save it for a time when I'm feeling a bit better that's just for people to be able to make more informed choices I think that's the big thing and then yeah
[70:15] Rich: and how do you i saw a tick tocker talk about this and i thought it was really refreshing because he was very conscious um that he didn't want to sound too preachy and like he was standing above the parapet how do you feel you can do that in a way especially so for example if you notice that one of your friends is really struggling um how do you or yeah have you had that sort of scenario and how have you gone about it in a way that it doesn't feel like you're being too preachy and um trying to because people need to find it in their own way right
[71:00] Millie: yeah 100 i think i try and avoid the actual alcohol part of it interestingly because if someone is drinking a hell of a lot it's likely they're doing so because they're struggling with something else whether that is like work stress or a breakup or you know they're just going through a really bad mental health patch so i think being for them as a friend and saying like are you okay are you struggling at the moment how's your how's your brain like tackling it from that way I think rather than tackling it from I think you might be drinking too much like I think is always the better way to go I don't think people are drinking to that level if they're like Or if they're drinking in that way, not necessarily to that level, because lots of people binge drinking, they're perfectly happy.
[71:57] Millie: But if you notice that they're drinking in a way that feels like it's quite detrimental, then I think, yeah, most people are likely struggling with something else. So, yeah, tackling that first. And not doing it when they're drunk. Don't try and do it when people are drunk. That's the worst thing you can do.
[72:19] Rich: Yeah, I can imagine that.
[72:21] Rich & Millie: Amazing. Thank you. Thank you. One last reminder, so Hangxiety comes out on... The 8th of September. Any particular retailers?
[72:28] Millie: All of them. And it's on Audible and Kindle. So if you don't like reading, you can listen to me.
[72:36] Rich: And it's you, isn't it?
[72:38] Millie: It's me.
[72:39] Rich: What was that like?
[72:40] Millie: It's such a weird process because you're stuck in a little box for like three days solid and you'll say a sentence, they'll go, go again, go again. And then they used to say that I was too fast. They'd be like, slow down, slow down. So yeah, and then you come out and then you just don't want to utter another word for another 24 hour.
[73:06] Rich: Okay that makes sense um amazing well yeah like i said can't wait to read it um thanks so much for being on the show today and if people had never seen you before never met you before uh where can they find you what's the best kind of channels um Instagram channels, that kind of thing.
[73:28] Millie: Yeah, so Instagram would be Millie Gooch or Sober Girl Society, but I float around occasionally on LinkedIn, TikTok, all of them pretty much.
[73:38] Millie: But yeah, Instagram's the main one.
[73:40] Rich: Amazing. Thanks so much.
[73:41] Millie: Thank you.
[73:42] Rich: Thanks everybody for joining us for Slurp or Skip. Hope you enjoyed the episode.
[73:48] Rich: If you've got any questions, please leave them in the comments below and we'll be sure to get back to you and we'll catch you on the next one. See you soon.